Even if NSAs don't meet we should let other talks take place, says Pakistan NSA Sartaj Aziz

After NSA talks between India and Pakistan fell through, CNN-IBN’s Anchal Vohra spoke with Pakistan’s NSA Sartaj Aziz about why the talks didn’t take place and the future course of action for both countries. Here are the best bits of the interview

I think what the minister (Swaraj) said in the press conference she held yesterday was that India is not running away from discussing Jammu and Kashmir and India has always said it is a part of all outstanding issues but during this meeting, considering this was a meeting between the two NSAs, the focus would be on security and the focus would be on terror. Could this meeting not have happened on one problem that you say your country faces too?

Sartaj Aziz: You see if you really go deeper into this, they say, start discussion and until terrorism is discussed and resolved somehow. So any time there is a small incident you can postpone the discussion indefinitely. In the past when terror could be discussed along with others why this unilateral decision that terror alone be discussed, because the objective is to discuss those issues that promote peace and reduce tension. So I think this insistence on narrow definition obviously meant to avoid discussion.

We were not talking of substantial discussions on Kashmir but at least the modalities and framework. Obviously when I go to Delhi I’ll meet the NSA then our foreign secretary could meet his counterpart. We even requested a call on to the EAM and PM so the other issues could be discussed there, so why insist that this time nothing else will be discussed. It is very unfortunate, because dialogue between two countries was at least at some level beginning and to lose that window of opportunity is rather unfortunate.

Was diplomacy conducted in complete media glare, would you agree? Or was there a back channel? Did the two countries try to have a back channel to come up with a diplomatic solution at all or no?

Sartaj Aziz: Back channel issue is a different matter. Once we start front channel, some issues are better pursued in back channel. But back channel without the front channel is meaningless. This is the whole concept of modalities when we talk of modalities means: Okay let’s start this and this we can discuss in back channel. This is the whole concept of modalities.

So once we had an opportunity we should have used that to promote the dialogue process. One should accept that composite or resumed dialogue is necessary and then you don’t delay it particularly when the only discussing terror can further vitiate the atmosphere rather than improve it.

What about the meeting between the DGMOs and the DG BSF and the Pakistan Rangers, is that going ahead?

Sartaj Aziz: Yes, Rangers and BSF is going ahead but her (Swaraj’s) assumption that they were suppose to meet before, this was not in Ufa. First was NSA, and then early meetings of BSF followed by by that of DGMOs. They of course talked to each other every week and we would like the BSF and the Rangers to meet because I think reducing tension on the LoC is necessary.

Even if the NSAs have not met we must pursue that particular agenda because humanitarian issues are involved, civilians are dying, people’s lives are disrupted. So we would like to intensify that interaction but that is not possible only at that level, DGMOs will also talk. It requires a mechanism to go beyond and suggestions have been made to make sure that some reduction in tensions take place.

Can you confirm the dates for both these meetings?

Sartaj Aziz: The BSF is confirmed for the sixth, they have already had a preliminary meeting to discuss the agenda. They will be meeting on the sixth of September. DGMO talks happen every week anyway and they can agree among themselves whenever they want to meet.

You were a part of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s delegation in Ufa. What was the agenda that was discussed because India’s understanding is that the agenda was terror and once you come up with some sort of understanding on that issue, then you move ahead. Was this understanding of all issues was that not to be discussed at a later stage?

Sartaj Aziz: No, no. The discussion took place on a wide range of issues then the Ufa statement record their decision. And the two decision- both were equally important. One was both India and Pakistan has a collective responsibility to ensure peace and promote development and to do so they are prepared to discuss all outstanding issues. They also agreed on the following steps taken by the two sides.

So that’s why we suggested that it will be definitely discussed but they should also discuss on how to pursue all the other issues. So our proposal for the agenda was totally in line with Ufa and this interpretation of one being preambular and the other being operative is not even reflected in the language of the declaration but in substance does not contribute to the objective that we have before.

The script playing out in Pakistan, is this dictated by the Pakistani army and the ISI? Is the Sharif government under pressure?

Sartaj Aziz: I think this is a narrative that India loves to do: There is no difference between the Army and them. I think as far Kashmir is concerned not only the political leadership as I said in the press conference - the whole nation is united that we cannot talk to India without Kashmir. It doesn’t require the army to dictate that.

Will the two leaders be meeting in New York? Is that something you’re going to be proposing?

Sartaj Aziz: We are not going to propose that, but if India proposes then we’ll see.

You said that you would like to hand over India the dossiers.

Sartaj Aziz: Handing over is not a meeting. If I get a chance I will probably. We have prepared these things so lets exchange them even if we can’t have a meeting.

There’s also been a lot of evidence against Dawood Ibrahim. You’ve been provided with passport numbers, addresses. Several times the Indian government has provided that to Pakistani authorities? Will there be any cooperation from Pakistan on that front?

Sartaj Aziz: What co-operation? I mean, let them provide. On Gurdaspur nothing has been provided. If they provide - we will take action. So India is always using the media to target and point fingers at Pakistan without providing anything. In my two years, I have not seen any evidence being provided on these two issues.

You said you will be presenting evidence against India on an international stage? What is this evidence? If you can give us any details.

Sartaj Aziz: I can’t give you details but that is not a part of the UNGA, that is on the sidelines and we will see how things move by then.