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Headed for BJP, Mukul Roy says Mamata's TMC wouldn't have had its glorious beginning without saffron party

Mukul Roy, Mamata Banerjee's former blue-eyed-boy-cum-man-Friday, is headed for the BJP after accusing her of being autocratic. Countering the charges, TMC general secretary and education minister Partha Chatterjee says Roy "betrayed" the party. Both leaders spoke to Romita Datta.

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Mukul Roy

Excerpts with Mukul Roy:

'I have come out clean in Saradha, they haven't'

Q. What happened? Why did you fall out with Mamata?

A. There were many factors-dynastic politics, my decision to cooperate with the CBI to help expose the [Saradha] fraudsters. But the final trigger was the party's decision to go with the Congress and the CPI(M). The Trinamool Congress was formed in 1997 because the Congress wasn't ready to fight the Left. If that was the reason for breaking from it, what on earth happened that we were ready to go with the Congress and our arch-enemy, the CPI(M)? That's going against the grain of the party.

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Q. Did you discuss this with Mamata?

A. There is no scope for discussion in the TMC. The writ of a single person runs, from candidate selection to our stand in Parliament. There has not been a single occasion when we could beg to differ with the chairman (Mamata).

Q. You're quitting the TMC for not being true to itself, but you're headed to the BJP.

A. A few months after the TMC was formed, Mamata herself said that the BJP wasn't "untouchable". The TMC and BJP had seat-sharing arrangements in 1998, 1999 and between 2002 and 2006. We contested the 1999 Lok Sabha as an NDA partner. Mamata was railway minister in Atal Bihari Vajpayee's cabinet. Even after breaking with the BJP after the Bangaru Laxman affair (2001), we were back in the NDA for some years. I don't need to justify myself. Without the BJP's backing, TMC wouldn't have had its glorious beginning.

Q . They are calling you an "opportunist", accusing you of cutting a deal with the BJP to keep the CBI at bay.

A. The ED began investigating Saradha in 2013 under the UPA and it was the Congress that demanded a CBI probe. I felt the investigation must reveal the truth because it involves thousands of poor people who were cheated. I will cooperate with any investigation, no matter which party I am in. TMC [leaders] thought that by shrugging me off, they could wash their hands of Saradha. I have come out clean. They haven't.

Q. Having been so critical of people accused in Saradha and Narada [scams], how come the BJP is now ready to take you in?

A. I have proved my innocence. The CBI called me only once, on January 30, 2015. The agency had no reason to chase me again. I can see a 2 per cent swing, which will lose the TMC many seats in 2019. The BJP could win 12 Lok Sabha seats. Things are changing at the grassroots.

Q. What about the voters, how will you convince them, particularly the Muslims, who have always known you to be 'secular'?

A. A sizeable section of minorities is not happy with things. The government claims to have done much for Muslims, but has nothing to show. There is sharp polarisation among Muslims, between the haves and the have-nots. For the first time, Bengal elections will be polarised. In 136 of 294 assembly segments, the minority has never been a factor and in places where they are, the divide is on dissatisfaction. I predict a 4 per cent dip in the TMC's minority votes.

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Q. But brand Mamata still commands the respect of a vast majority?

A. Indira Gandhi too was a brand in 1977. So you know, such branding counts for little in politics. In 2016, the TMC's victory margin in 100 seats was 5,000-15,000 and the BJP polled 15,000-20,000 votes. Had those gone to the Congress-Left combine, the story would have been very different.

Q. You talk of dynastic politics in the TMC, are you alluding to Mamata's nephew?

A. I say once again that those who have not taken part in the great movements of the Trinamool Congress-Nanoor, Suchhpur, Singur, Nandigram, Netai-have no experience, competence or credibility to lead. Alas! Blood is thicker than water. But dynasty doesn't make a leader. Rahul Gandhi is still being groomed after 18 years.

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Q. Is there any possibility of a rapprochement with Mamata?

A. No. We have reached a point of no return. She has engaged her administration to keep a watch on me. My phones are being tapped.

'He left the party to save his skin'

Excerpts with Partha Chatterjee:

Q. Mukul Roy says he's joining the BJP because the TMC is hobnobbing with the Congress and Left...

A. Where was his conscience when we had seat adjustment with Congress in 2001 and joined UPA-II in 2009?

Q. He says there is no democracy within the party.

A. Every time the party held organisational elections, he was the returning officer. Why did he agree to be RO?

Q. He says there is no scope for discussion, that TMC is a one-(wo)man party.

A. Despite Manmohan Singh's reservations, Mukul Roy, a non-entity from Kanchrapara, could become minister of railways because Mamata Banerjee desired it.

Q. Mukul accuses Mamata of dynastic politics.

A. Is there a rule that bars family members of politicians from joining politics? Why did he give his son a ticket?

Q. He claims the CBI has given him a clean chit but other TMC leaders are being summoned for questioning.

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A. He has surrendered to the CBI. He has left his party and is joining another party to save his skin.

Q . Mukul says branding doesn't work in politics, not even 'brand Mamata'.

A. No one knew him till Mamata introduced him to the world. Mukul Roy is a traitor with no credibility.

Q . He says he is being stalked, his phones tapped.

A. Let him prove any of this.

Q .Why was Mukul suspended?

A. He was weakening the party from within, maintaining links with BJP leaders in an individual capacity.