Why Uma Bharti
Uma Bharti has been the chief minister of Madhya Pradesh and also served as a Union minister in Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s Cabinet. A prominent leader of the Ramjanmabhoomi movement who was known for her fiery speeches in the late ’80s, Bharti is among the few saffron-robed leaders to find a place in the Modi Cabinet. She has been given charge of water resources, river development, Ganga Rejuvenation ministry in a government that has called cleaning the Ganga river a mission, and set up a panel on the mythical Saraswati.
SHYAMLAL YADAV: When the government was being formed at the Centre, you were considered a natural claimant to the water resources, river development and Ganga rejuvenation ministry.
I was considered a natural claimant to the ministry not just because of my work on the Ganga river, but with water in general. Water management, water resources… I am very attached to water, I am not scared of it.
When I was given the water resources ministry, I was extremely pleased. I knew that until now the ministry was only concerned with releasing grants, it did not really have a role of its own. There were no independent proposals from the ministry.
For the Ganga, I had thought things through in a very comprehensive manner. I met everyone attached with the river. We discussed things from a scientific and environmental point of view. We also spoke to people who are economically dependent on the river and even those who have suffered because of it.
SHYAMLAL YADAV: There have been attempts to clean the Ganga since 1985, but without much success. Do you think it is possible to achieve a Biochemical Oxygen Demand of less than 2 and Dissolved Oxygen of more than 6 mg/litre—i.e. water that can be used for drinking without any treatment—in the Ganga water?
See, even if mineral water from a commercial brand is checked in an international lab, there are bound to be problems in it. The labs may say that this water is not good for your health. So, Ganga water cannot be examined under such a criterion. Right now, Ganga is considered to be one of the ten dirtiest rivers in the world. But if we manage to get the river enlisted among the cleanest rivers, then we will truly achieve our target. Personally, I think the proof of Ganga’s cleanliness will come from its aquatic life. If Ganga is cleaned, then the aquatic life that thrived in the region will return—the turtles, dolphins, goldfish. Right now, there is none of it.
So now we have created a programme around this (aquatic life). We will now check the Ganga from the point of view of the creatures which inhabit the river.
SHEELA BHATT: Since the BJP government came to power at the Centre, you seem to be maintaining a low profile, especially in the politics of Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh.
This is the happiest time of my life. Since I joined the party, I wanted the BJP to get a majority at the Centre, like it has now. Secondly, before the 2014 general elections, the impression that many people in the country had about the party was that we only do bhajan and kirtan. But we managed to break that perception by showing that we were pro-development.
Our faith is in Hindutva, but the agenda for governance is development, and there we don’t differentiate on the basis of caste and religion. In the earlier years, our victory was limited to states—Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh and Gujarat. But after the 2014 general elections, I was satisfied on two accounts—first that the BJP got a majority, and secondly, that we achieved success on the agenda of development.
On top of this, I was given the water resources portfolio. So this is the most beautiful time of my life, and I want to enjoy this as I work. I don’t care if I am in the news or not.
COOMI KAPOOR: Did you agree with the permission given to Sri Sri Ravi Shankar to hold the World Culture Festival on the Yamuna floodplains?
Technically speaking, it was not the job of my ministry to grant permission for the event. That comes under the environment ministry. There was some confusion initially, but I had immediately clarified.
Actually, the venue where the programme was held was a very dirty place, and in fact it has now become cleaner. Pigs, buffaloes, scorpions and snakes used to roam there. With Sri Sri Ravi Shankar’s event, Yamuna river was highlighted and the area was made better, cleaner.
SHEELA BHATT: There has been no decision on the chief ministerial candidate for Uttar Pradesh yet by the BJP, but you seem to be one of the probables. How do you see the political situation in the state and what would be your role in the elections?
The decision on who should be the CM candidate and who shouldn’t be depends on the Centre and the state. For now, my only role in UP will be that when I am asked, I will go there. Apart from this. I don’t think about my role in the state.
In a state, the local BJP leaders and workers have specific roles. These people need to think about their strategy. Why did they lose in Bihar? How will they win in Assam? How will they win in UP? The BJP leaders, workers have to plan. People like me will help anywhere, wherever Amit Shah asks, we will help.
AMITABH SINHA: The government has set up a panel under Professor KS Valdiya on the Saraswati river. If the panel says that such a river does exist, is there a model on which you plan to base the efforts of reviving the river?
We have heard of dirty rivers being cleaned, like the Thames in London, but stories of revival of old rivers haven’t come to the fore yet. I think the problem (of rivers drying up) is mostly limited to the Indian subcontinent. Australia has fixed its river basin. In India, we have let water dry up and didn’t care. We used up both the surface water and ground water. This problem can arise in Pakistan and Sri Lanka too. We should really look for these dried-up rivers, and we have made a task force for this purpose. BN Navalawala who was Modiji’s advisor for 10 years is now our chief advisor. Under his chairmanship, there is a task force that is examining India’s dry areas to see if there are dried-up streams of water.
These streams cannot be revived immediately. But if rainwater is collected in these zones, trees are planted, water will eventually seep through the soil and these streams will get recharged. The water table in the surrounding areas too will start rising.
See for now, there is no evidence of the Saraswati in the Triveni, we just have the Ganga and Yamuna. (Saraswati is considered an invisible part of the confluence in Allahabad). Research is underway. For now, we cannot call it (the dried-up stream) the Saraswati river. We will get the water tested and the team will then decide what needs to be done.
I have told him (the head of the Saraswati committee, KS Valdiya) that only after proper research will we announce the presence of the Saraswati river. We believe it is the Saraswati, but we need proof. So we have requested that the panel should have sittings in Bengaluru itself, as Valdiyaji cannot travel. The team give him all the proof and we will accept the results.
AMITABH SINHA: What are the experts telling you now? Will we be able to see a river and can it be used to recharge the water table?
It is believed that the river Saraswati was pushed down because of an earthquake. In some cases, because of an earthquake, rivers are known to come to the fore too. In Madhya Pradesh, there was an earthquake in the ’90s. My village is 250 km from Jabalpur. After the earthquake, the water in the well of our village rose, and for almost two years, the water table stayed up.
See, I don’t think that there is a stream flowing underground (in case of Saraswati), but I do believe that the water must be mixed with sand, there must be some moistness in the soil. For our efforts to be successful, the society will have to participate so that the water table in the region can be recharged. Here the MGNREGA will be important too. Species of trees that will help in recharging the ground water will have to be planted.
MANEESH CHHIBBER: Since your government came to power, there have been many controversial statements by your leaders. These diverge from the development agenda that the Prime Minister talked about at the start of his government.
People working in the government have never drifted from the development agenda. Those making the controversial statements are not in the government, at least most of them are not. The controversial comments are highlighted in news, but the work of the government is also going on. The road, water and electricity work is on track.
Whatever has happened till now, like the Rohith Vemula, Kanhaiya Kumar cases, it is in fact Rahul Gandhi who has suffered the most because of them. Whatever little votes he got, the ones that didn’t go to Mulayam Singh Yadav, Mamata Banerjee or Lalu Prasad, he has lost even those now. So if anything, these events are a bigger concern for Rahul Gandhi.
MUZAMIL JALEEL: In the last two years, with incidents like Dadri etc., there seems to be an increase in social tension in the country. It seems that people who are within the government and those outside it are working on two different briefs.
Firstly, there have been social tensions all over the world. Europe’s perspective has changed. Donald Trump (front-runner for the Republican nomination in the US presidential race) has also started getting many followers in America.
India is the safest place for minorities. It is the most tolerant country because we have faced a big tragedy like the Partition. I find it absurd when people like Rahul Gandhi raise questions because he seems to have forgotten that the Emergency was declared in the country during the Congress regime, and lakhs of Muslims were castrated, they were forced to do family planning. Many died during surgery itself. Lakhs of innocent people were put in jails. The Congress party has absolutely no right to talk about freedom of expression. The biggest victims of the Emergency were the minorities.
Now, that time has passed and a phase as bad as that has never come again in the country and we will not let it come. I give this guarantee. Yes, if some small incidents happen, then people will react and speak, but we (the BJP) never start any of it. Dadri did not happen in our state. We don’t have a government in Uttar Pradesh.
Wherever we are in power and an untoward incident occurs, action is immediately taken, like in Haryana (after the Jat quota protests). Where do Naxalites and Maosists come from? They are people with extreme interpretations of socialist and Communist movements. But you cannot blame all socialists and Communists for their actions. The best thing about India is elections. There is democracy in our country and people reject things that they don’t like. In five years, things change.
SHYAMLAL YADAV: On many occasions, you have mentioned that you will not allow hydropower projects on the banks of the Ganga. Now an affidavit has been filed in the environment ministry seeking clearance for three projects. You did not agree with the move. You also wanted powers under Section 5 of the Environment Protection Act. Have you raised these issues with the PM?
See, I have never opposed hydropower projects. I simply said that for any project, regarding irrigation or power, the river should not be destroyed. Rivers cannot be remade, they are natural entities.
What I said was that the world has progressed so much, such high-level technology is available to us, so we should come up with a design in which at least one stream of the river must keep flowing. We call it ecological flow or e-flow. The concept of e-flow in India has been introduced by my ministry and I have put a lot of emphasis on it. I have told the Central Water Commission (CWC) that whenever a dam is designed, there should be an e-flow assessment. Don’t design a dam on the river, make it on the side of the river, so that monsoon water can be captured and the river bed stays unharmed.
So yes, I have propagated the e-flow concept and a few hydropower projects can get into trouble because of this. But if these projects are willing to rework their design, it will be fine.
Last year on March 25 there was a meeting which the PM attended, where we asked for Section 5 powers (closure, prohibition or regulation of any industry, operation or process by the Centre), because when we are the NGRBA (National Ganga River Basin Authority), we should be given the power to take action against all sources of pollution concerning the Ganga. Right now we only have the power of recommendation. The power to take action is with the Central Pollution Control Board (CPCB). But our demand was opposed by both the environment and law ministry.
After I raised the issue, the Prime Minister made a high-level task force under the Cabinet Secretary and said that whichever industry is polluting the river, strict action should be taken against them.
AMITABH SINHA: A number of private parties are now involved in the functioning of sewage treatment plants (STPs). Are we heading towards a future where treated water made at these plants will have to be bought?
In case of the Ganga, we have decided that the treated water must not be allowed to flow into the river. So where will this treated water go? Efforts will have to be made to create a market for treated water. Farmers can buy it for irrigation and gardening. We are aware that some treated water might not be suitable for irrigation, like that coming out as effluent from certain industries. So those industries will have to recycle their water.
Fresh water, whether it is surface water, ground water or reserved rain water, cannot be used for every purpose. We would have to bring clarity on the uses it can be put to and the purposes it cannot be used for. Otherwise, we are staring at a huge water problem in the country.
Under the Constitution, water is a subject to be dealt with by the state governments. But, if needed, we can bring in a law. A draft is already being worked upon. We will take the concurrence of the state governments on the uses of fresh water. It cannot be used for everything. We need to conserve water.
COOMI KAPOOR: In your political career so far, what has been your biggest regret—stepping down from the post of CM in Madhya Pradesh or when you left the BJP at one stage?
I have never said that I want to be the CM of Madhya Pradesh again. I have just said that I should be consulted about who gets the post. Right now, I just want to forget the whole incident (stepping down from MP CM post in 2004). I have always worked with emotion and conviction, and there has been no room for regret.
But I have to say that it is only now that I am happy being a politician. Earlier I used to regret being in the profession. But ever since I was given the water resources ministry, I have been happy. Maybe this has been my life’s purpose. Ultimately, I feel, Narendra Modi has converted my life’s regret into a success. But yes, I have never been a politician.
Transcribed by Somya Lakhani, Pooja Khati & Pallavi Pundir
