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‘Maharashtra is leading in fightback against Naxals’

Sanjeev Dayal speaks about coping with challenges posed Naxals, why reservation for constables’ children in police jobs is justified and many other issues.

Maharashtra Director General of Police Sanjeev Dayal. Maharashtra Director General of Police Sanjeev Dayal.

Director General of Police Sanjeev Dayal speaks about coping with the challenges posed by radicalisation and Naxal threats, things to look forward to in the amended transfer policy and why reservation for constables’ children in police jobs is justified, besides the police’s success in improving conviction rate and failure in cracking Dabholkar murder case.

SHAJI VIKRAMAN: There is a growing concern about radicalisation. How are the police coping with these challenges?

It’s a cause of major concern for all of us. we are doing in our small way whatever can be done to counter this, but we feel it requires a more holistic approach by the government. You need to address the issues that are leading to the radicalisation. There are perceived sense of grievances. And, even if they are perceived sense of grievances contributing to this (radicalisation), we feel it needs to be tackled. They need to be redressed. Accordingly, we have moved a paper to the government suggesting a very holistic approach. I have had a discussion with the current chief minister and he was very positive. We are taking forward our proposal to the government with the new additional chief secretary to get a more structured response.

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Kavitha Iyer: On structured response, have you considered practices, let’s say like a United Kingdom model? They have an offline as well as online counter kind of script. Do we have something like that?

The United Kingdom has a very detailed response, what they call CONTEST, or ‘counter terrorism strategy’. Any counter terrorism strategy consists of four strands — pursue, prevent, protect and prepare. In the prevent strand, you talk about issues that will prevent radicalisation. For example, when we had this bomb blast in Malegaon, the first one in 2006, the refrain from the local population was, we don’t have any hospital, there is no trauma handling capability in this place. They were correct, and later on the government built a hospital. But till then they didn’t have it and they felt it. Another perceived sense of grievance is that areas dominated by a certain community, be it Malegaon, Bhiwandi or Ichalkaranji, suffer neglect by the municipal authorities. This is a perceived grievance, whether this is right or wrong I am nobody to comment. My issue is that even if it is a perceived grievance, you still need to address it, correct it.
Housing is another issue. There are complaints that some don’t get housing in certain areas. Singapore has adopted by law that housing shall be mixed — 40 per cent Malays, 20 per cent Chinese, 10 per cent Asians and so on. And this ratio shall be maintained by law. Can we not at least in areas where the government is subsidising the housing by some way or the other, say that you will have X number of minorities also?

Festive offer

SRINATH RAO: It has been 20 years since mohalla committees came into existence? How do you view the role of these committees to prevent flare-ups?

Mohalla committees were extremely successful in breaking the ice and bringing the two communities together — especially at the time when the two had become sharply polarised. But they succeeded at that time because people wanted a forum and wanted to start talking to each other. But somewhere down the line, things cooled down after 1994-95. Mohalla committees will succeed when people come forward by themselves and state that from our side the particular person is the representative, and not when police say this one will be a representative. When a police officer nominates a representative, the credibility of a committee is finished. The moment a police officer nominates a person, it is viewed by the community as not neutral. But communities have to come forward and we are willing to facilitate the formation of a mohalla committee. We acted then as facilitators, we did not form the committees. The then commissioner Satish Sawhney had given us clear directions that the police would facilitate and not form the committees. And because society was interested in such committees (then), having seen the violence in 1992 and 1993, we came forward and facilitated and the committees produced great results. But now when we try, the same kind of zeal or enthusiasm is not there.

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ZEESHAN SHAIKH: Given the disproportionate number of Muslims arrested and the low numbers in the police force, do you think the police force has failed to address concerns of the community?

It is true that the representation of Muslims in the force is not what it ought to be. It is something that bothers me as the chief of the police. We have analysed our recruitment processes with figures as to where the problem lies. The problem is not in outdoor examinations as very large number of Muslim candidates or students clear the physical tests but they fail miserably in the written test because Marathi is not what they have learnt in their formal education. This is what we need to give as input in the education curricula. We have gone to responsible Muslim organisations like Anjuman Islam and requested them to include Marathi as a subject in formal schools and even in madrasas, which provide inexpensive education. We have simply requested them to kindly include this subject because it will help the students in the job market. On our part, we have tried to provide inputs to as many Muslim applicants as possible on Marathi, what the test looks like, how to attempt it but lack of any formal training or foundation in the subject makes it difficult for them to pass tests. It is difficult to attempt a paper, not spoken, learnt, or written earlier. That’s the problem. About the disproportionate number of Muslims in jails, the trouble lies not in the arrests, as perceived, but after arrests, when they are not getting bail. These people cannot afford bail, or they come from a background where it is not possible for them to follow the same procedure as any other person, unless they are from a higher strata of society. Therefore, the number seems high because of their inability to get themselves bail, which is the problem. The number would appear to be disproportionately high when somebody you arrest is not coming out on bail.

SHUBHANGI KHAPRE: How do you probe sleeper cells and do they still continue to be exploited by external factors?

I don’t think foreign hand or any hand is an excuse or has been an excuse for policy issues or the lack of it. To think that there are no more sleeper cells, we have not reached that point. In any society, there are enough contradictions to have disgruntled people acting as sleeper cells. I don’t think there is any nation that has no contradiction or that lives in perfect harmony. So there is always some material that can be exploited by the intelligence agencies of other countries.

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ZEESHAN SHAIKH: You speak of empathy when it comes to women’s issues, but a lot of women who go to police station complain that police are still insensitive.

I would not say that we are fully gender sensitive. I cannot claim that. We are a two-lakh-seventeen-thousand strong force. There are bound to be some bad eggs. But I can say we are one department where sensitivity to this is a requirement. And we are taking conscious efforts to address this and make our men more sensitive. We have included this in our basic courses and in service courses. We have made sure the supervisory officers at all levels address this issue, talk to their men about it and also set a good example themselves for others to follow. I cannot boast that we are wonderful, but we are trying. There is one issue here when we say this. Recruitment at the constabulary level is taking place at the average age of 26. Recruitment at the sub-inspector level is taking place at the age of 28 years. For direct DySPs, the average age is 34. At that level, a man’s mindset is already made. At that age, to deconstruct a mindset and make a new edifice is a very difficult task. A child is growing up seeing how his father treats his mother and sister, and that’s where learning those values come, where there is certain kind of authority to wield. So despite trying our best it is true that some people still have a different mindset. But at least in our department we are trying to change things.

NISHANT SARWANKAR: What is the status of the Naxal issue in the state?

Violence unleashed by Maoists has remained confined to one-and-a-half districts in Maharashtra. They have not been able to grow out of that area. We have had spectacular successes since 2013. I recall that in August 2012, the then national security adviser, at the behest of the then prime minister, had called our chief minister and conveyed a sense of unease that the situation in Maharashra was bad and was slipping. We had told them then that we had a new team in place. A new SP had joined Gadchiroli — Mr Suvez Haq — and a new IG, Mr Ravindra Kadam. There was some skepticism, but now they are acknowledging that we are leading in terms of fightback against the Naxals. On November 30, during the crime conference of the DGPs, in the presentation made by the IB before the Union home minister and thereafter the prime minister, they showed the performance of various states against Naxals, and the performance of central paramilitary forces. And the Union home minister was very pleasantly surprised to see that all Naxals accounted for in Maharashtra were by the state police. He was very effusive in his praise. So these two wonderful officers have turned the clock. Today, we have forced them (the Maoists) to change their tactics. Now, they are no longer trying to move around in large numbers, which they were doing very freely till 2002.

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SANDEEP ASHAR: All this while, you had districts even in Marathwada and one area in Nanded in the list of Naxal-affected areas. Would you say the Naxal threat was deliberately overplayed or exaggerated as there were no incidents in those areas?

When those areas were classified as ‘Naxal-affected’, there had been incidents of violence. In Wani area of Yavatmal, there had been incidents of throwing of pamphlets, there was also an incident of the burning of a bus. You must also be aware that one of the leading lights, Maharashtra Chapter of Maoists, belongs to that area. As far as Nanded is concerned, back in 1987-88, when I happened to be the SP of Nanded, on January 24, 1988, the then district forest officer and I went to this hamlet somewhere in Hilwat from where Naxal movement had been reported. We went and we interviewed the villagers, and it was correct, they had come. As I was saying, exploitation of any local contradiction, there are only two tribes in that area, one is Gaunds, and the other the Angs. And Angs are in a greater number. So they are inciting the Gaunds to rise up against the Angs. But this was happening then. Later on, a gentleman who died in an encounter later, did a fair amount of violence in Hilwat taluka. And therefore, it came to be categorised as a Naxal-affected area.

SANDEEP ASHAR: But every year, or every two years, based on the DG’s report, the list of areas has to be reviewed. This had not been done for the last 10 years. It is being done now. Why was it not done earlier?

The report from the DG goes. The rest of the questions you are asking the wrong person.

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KAVITHA IYER: Could you give us an idea of the scale of the challenges that you are expecting for the Nashik Kumbh Mela?

Basic challenges are going to be two. In short, more people over narrower lanes and roads. Every year, every Kumbh attracts more devotees than the previous one. Estimates are that there were over 60 lakh people during the entire Kumbh period the previous time. And therefore we expect about 75 to 80 lakh to a crore this year. We expect about five to six million people on the second parwani, which is supposed to be the most important parwani. Over the last 12 years, the roads through which you approach the Ram Kund have become narrower. The route which is known as the Shahi route, taken by the Akhadas to travel from the Sadhu Gram to Ram Kund, itself has become narrower. This is going to be the biggest challenge. Now, a third challenge has emerged in the form of the Sadhu Gram itself. It requires a huge amount of area to accommodate the sadhus that come. And while the government has got about 70 acres in its possession, it requires, temporarily, at least 150 acres to be able to accommodate the sadhus. The government had taken certain measures to start what is called as temporary requisition of the land, but that government notification was challenged in the High Court and has been struck down. So, now, where they will be able to accommodate has become another challenge for the mela.

ZEESHAN SHAIKH: There was a news report about Suvez Haq being recommended for the President’s Medal and the home department did not do that. A lot of our young, bright officers feel that the police force does not take adequate care of them?

Coming to the first, we have recommended Mr Haq’s name for the last two years. Last year, his name was forwarded for a particular type of medal, and not for the second. This year, since the first medal is still pending with the central government, he was recommended for the other medal. There is a process in this. There is a committee, which consists of the DGP, the DG ACB, the CP, the ADG Law and Order and the ADG Establishment. This committee met as early as September, finalised the names, including that of Mr Haq, and sent its recommendations to the government in the month of October. Now, it has started to move. I am still working on it, trying my best that this gentleman who has done a wonderful job. As a chief of police I salute him, he should get his due. Let’s see.

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ZEESHAN SHAIKH: It’s not about an individual, it’s about the process. It’s about how things work. Is there a fundamental problem?

There is no fundamental problem. There is a process of nominations coming. And there is a process which says, so many people of this seniority only and not below are entitled, unless you want to make an exception, which we have made in Mr Haq’s case. Then, there is a committee which seats and values their records. And there is a quota fixed by the central government that every state may get these many medals in a year. So our quota is 85 in a given year. Against that quote, you can send only a certain number of people. And this force of 2,17,000 people has to be accommodated in that quota, not just IPS officers. There has to be a fair mix of constables, head constables, ranks superior to them. So everyone is not going to get the quota. And the bigger the force, the more difficult it is going to be.

ROHIT ALOK: Security analysts say terrorism is evolving from activities undertaken by a large group to more of lone-wolf operations, like the ones that happened in Sydney and Paris. Do you think Maharashtra is capable of handling such lone-wolf attacks?

As for the lone wolf attacks, while talking about radicalisation, I admit this is the biggest challenge today. There is, on the Internet, material which says those who want to serve the cause of the ISIS need not necessarily travel to Iraq or Syria. You do this wherever you are, and therefore, in Australia, you recall that they were able to prevent the beheading of some people. Similarly, we had this case where this man wanted to go to a school in Bandra and do something there, which he was prevented from doing. So, yes, it is a challenge finding out who is getting radicalised. Earlier, either you had Internet at home, most probably from BSNL or MTNL, or you were going to a café. But now, everyone has Internet on his phone. Therefore, the best way that we have advocated to our people is to increase contact in the communities.

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SHUBHANGI KHAPRE: You have always been the architect of the transfer policy. Now that the new chief minister has taken some initiatives to decentralise the powers from ministers to respective departments, what kind of changes do you anticipate?

Please understand that the police was, and is, on a different footing than other departments. In other departments, they are still working under the Regulation of Transfers and Delay in Disposal of Official Duties Act. And under that Act, the delegation is easier for the government to do at any level that the government decides. And the government therefore in relation to those departments has delegated powers to them. When it comes to the police, it calls for an amendment in the Act. You would recall that some time in September, the previous government had amended the Maharashtra Police Act and brought in all these things in the Police Act itself. The government is very positive on those amendments. We have suggested what changes are required. In the hurry to bring in those changes, a lot of things have escaped. For example, the tenure has come down to two years for even a constable. I can’t transfer 90,000 constables every year. I will simply go bankrupt paying them the transfer allowance. Then if I am to transfer a constable every two years, where is his knowledge? So we have suggested that we need to go back to the earlier system where the tenure of constables was around five years. The CM is very positive on that. Today, we have created a situation where the SP can’t transfer anybody. This needs to be rectified. He needs to be able to transfer officers up to the rank of police inspector from one police station to another as was the situation prior to the amendment. The government has accepted that as well.

SANDEEP ASHAR: As the chief of police, when you have 536 recommendations made by the Police Establishments Board and 126 are rejected or modified, how do you deal with political interference?

Same way when you put up a story and find it totally edited out of shape. I feel the same way.

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SANDEEP ASHAR: But the Supreme Court has given its ruling. The state legislature has diluted what the SC has to say. As the chief of police, how do you deal with it, or is there something that can be done?

Well, I can only say that I had requested the then government that it should comply with the directives of the Supreme Court. The then advocate general also advised that they should comply with the directives of the Supreme Court. But government is government, it is supreme.

SANDEEP ASHAR: There is 5 per cent reservation for children of constables in police recruitment. When the government was opposing it, the police force was pushing for it. Why should constables’ children get 5 per cent reservation in constabulary?

Because their parents are simply not there to look after them. It’s a single parent upbringing. In a city like Mumbai, where once you are in a house, you are in a house. But the father is 16 to 18 hours away every day. And he is simply not available to the child to guide him and to give him any kind of help in his education at all. In a rural area, 40 per cent of our police stations are such that there is no educational facility for the wards of the policemen. So they are forced to leave the children behind. And therefore the children again are brought up by a single parent.

SHIVANI NAIK: Are you ever worried of the police force itself being communal or prejudiced against Muslims?

Oh yes, extremely worried. We are not prejudiced. Again, in a force this big, there could be individual elements who may have done something wrong on a given occasion. But to tarnish or to paint the entire force with the same brush would not be fair. But yes, we are worried. When the unfortunate videos came up after the Dhule riots, we took corrective action straight away. Not only action against the people involved, but corrective action means sensitisation programmes of the force. It’s now a part of our basic training curricula. We are now also sensitising how you should behave in a certain situation. For example, during Ramzan, when you have a fellow for interrogation, what you should be doing to not hurt his sensitivities. Yes, despite these steps, there could be some individual aberrations. I am not saying that things have changed overnight. But a sincere effort is being made in that direction.

SHIVANI NAIK: There was recently a controversy on the portrayal of policemen in movies. Are you happy with the way they are portrayed?

Which movie? There are movies which are making fun of policemen all the day, and there are movies like Singham which swing the other way. I am not happy with either. I am quite happy with a movie like Sarfarosh, which presents a balanced view, a view of things the way they are actually done in investigative police work. Not Singham where you are openly defying the law and advocating that the entire police force should walk out in a revolt against the system. No. It’s not the way.

SHIVANI NAIK: Do you watch any of these crime or investigation series on television? And how different are they from real police work? Crime Scene Investigation or even Sherlock?

Let me start with Sherlock Holmes. I would like to tell you, much as we love Sherlock Holmes as a very dear character for all of us in the police. Arthur Conan Doyle was a brilliant writer. But remember that Holmes tackled murder cases. And he did not go to tackle a theft case. I would be very happy if something had been written on how to tackle a burglary. For instance, if someone has broken your lock and gone away, come to the logic there and tell me how do deal with it. So actually, if you look at it professionally, we regard a murder case as one of the easiest ones to detect. And in any police force, not just Maharashtra, if you take the statistics, you will find detection rate of murder cases at 92-93 per cent across the board. It’s one of the easiest cases to detect. A Sunanda Pushkar would come once in a blue moon.

SHUBHANGI KHAPRE: Why could the Maharashtra Police not crack the case of rationalist Narendra Dabholkar’s murder?

It is something that bothers us as well. Despite the fact that we have handed over the investigation of this case to the CBI, we are still continuing our parallel investigation. It is something that pricks our conscience.

GAUTAM S MENGLE: The conviction rate, in Mumbai itself, touched 49 per cent last year and the overall conviction rate in the state has also gone up considerably. Could you outline the reasons or the steps that were taken for it, and any more steps still being taken?

Good question. Till 2011, we had done 8 per cent — 7.8 to be precise. In 2013, we reached 15.2 per cent. In November 2014, we touched 20 per cent (in the state). The journey from eight to 15 per cent is largely attributed to an all-out effort by everyone, every unit to consciously take steps to see that our conviction rate goes up. Every commissioner, every SP has been trying his best for the last two years. We have reshifted our focus on the quality of supervision of important cases, laid more emphasis that you should do quality investigation and without that please don’t allow the cases to go to court. Secondly, we have started a system that we call the ‘pairavi system’. For every court, we have designated officers who liaise between the prosecution branch and the police to ensure that the witnesses are made available in time, that they are not turning hostile, that the prosecution is playing its due role. We have also advised the designated officers to try and request the district sessions judge to spare some time for liaison meetings with the police. That will help the police understand where the show is pinching. The magistrates have a view; because they are appreciating your evidence, they can guide you where things are going wrong. We have also made requests to this government asking for panels in every unit of specialized public prosecutors who can be hired by us in important cases. The government has agreed to that.

ROHIT ALOK: There is a demand for more police stations. Could you tell us the status?

We have, after 1960, no yardstick approved by any government on the basis of which a new police station should be opened. An exercise was done some time in 2004 by the McKinsey and they came up with an excellent report stating on what basis a police station should be opened, what should be the strength of police stations etc. An entire matrix was given to us by McKinsey. But the report has not been accepted yet. But I would like to make a very humble submission, because any increase is going to come from your pockets. Today, we have reached a level of 2.17 lakh policemen and there is a proposal for 48,000 more accepted in principle. But I am not in a position to give them good training because I don’t have adequate training facilities. I am not in a position to give them housing. If I am not in a position, I am producing a mob…we are getting a virtual mob if it is not trained, if it is not disciplined, if it is not housed… they are rubbing shoulders with criminals every day.

ZEESHAN SHAIKH: But the city development plans don’t include space for police stations.

That’s our problem. There is no reservation for the police not in the municipal areas alone, it’s not even there in MIDCs and CIDCOs.

SANDEEP ASHAR: In the new development plan (DP), they have proposed reservations for police stations.

When the DP is approved. The DP has not been approved as yet.

SMITA NAIR: What is the most difficult part of being the DGP of Maharashtra?

There are several things. One is always bothered about law and order, one is always bothered about a terrorist attack. Let me say that this state has all the problems. It’s a very peculiar concoction that every state may not have. You have the coast, you have very highly communally sensitive areas, you have very high caste tensions, you also have Naxal areas. You have economic disparities which lead to very large, very very high number of property crimes. Our proportion of property crimes, as a percentage of total crimes, is very high. The economic offences percentage is very high and cyber crime is the highest because the number of users here are the highest. So yes, this peculiar combination exists in this state.

SMITA NAIR: How do you look at the IPS cadre in Maharashtra now? Do other investigations agencies look up to the state police?

Let me say that as far as the investigation skills are concerned, I do not think we are any less than any other state. This was a tremendous work done with (Ajmal) Kasab, it is difficult to talk about it. It may look like open and shut, but it was not easy. There is a lot of work that had to be done to ensure conviction in the Sections that were applied. Murder, yes, he would have got a conviction. (The Section for) waging war (against the nation) is what the centre and all of us were interested in, because it has connotations of Pakistan. Prosecution is being pursued in Israel, America, and several other countries like Singapore and Australia and Japan who lost their citizens, so the investigation had to be credible to survive all these things, and it is not an easy job. So, I do not think we are any less in investigation skills. If we go purely by the figures of the conviction, yes, it may appear that we are not doing very well. But then, very large number of our cases fall, as our studies have shown, due to the witnesses turning hostile. How to address this situation is something beyond the realm of the police. What you do is reduce your reliance on this, and this is now what we are trying to do.

GAUTAM S MENGLE: What is the current state of the Crime and Criminal Tracking Network System (CCTNS), and why is its implementation taking so long?

CCTNS project has several sub-parts to it. Part one is that you need to reach the hardware as well as the attendant things to over 1,000 police stations. The second is you need to digitise all the records that are available to you today in hard format. The third is you need to have good servers with a good bandwidth that will provide the necessary connectivity. You need to have a good back-up because there are several places in Maharashtra where electricity is available for only eight hours. Then, there are software issues, which is developed centrally for the central government so that the platform is common and links everyone in a common arena. The effort is on. I am happy to tell you that as far as the assessment of the DG, National Crime Records Bureau, goes, Maharashtra is by far leading in achieving the milestones.

ZEESHAN SHAIKH: Does having the CM as your Home Minister make life less stressful for you?

It makes life easier, yes. And this chief minister, so far, whatever interaction we have had, has been very kind, very generous. So I can only say that the beginning has been very optimistic, and we hope to build on what we have achieved so far.

First uploaded on: 13-01-2015 at 14:49 IST
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