Rajkumar Hirani: Anyone who gives you money will want an ounce of blood

Raju Hirani explains how conflict, of almost all kinds, is simply a difference of points of view, and how, despite being a bit of an activist at heart, he’s not trying to change the world
When 3 Idiots released, Aamir said in an interview to us that "there is an 'innate goodness' in Raju Hirani which reflects in the cinema he makes. As a person, as a director, he shows you even negative characters with warmth".What's this innate goodness all about?
(Laughs) Maine toh khud kabhi nahin kaha ki main bahut achha hoon. I’ve been making films that come from within. This is the kind of cinema I’ve liked, the kind of cinema that I’ve enjoyed. Hrishikesh Mukherjee ki filmein dekhta thaa, woh zyaada maza deti thi, rather than watching a thriller. So that’s the kind of cinema I like making. Maine kabhi nahin kaha ki main koi bahut hi bhola aadmi hoon. When I was a kid, maine bhi bahut masti ki. Villain nahin tha, but I was like a normal kid, a big prankster. Bahut masti karte they. Wohi mastiyan kaam aayi. Wohi saari cheezen nikal-nikal ke filmon mein aayi hain. Wohi saare pranks, wohi masti, wohi filmon mein aati hai. Experiences come out in whatever you make.
But of late, when I analyse it, I realise that we start on a journey to tell a story, but we end up putting things we very strongly believe in. College ki film banayi aur usme education ki baat aa gayi, kyunki hum believe karte hain, Gandhi ki film banai toh non-violence ki baat kar di, doctoron ki film banayi toh compassion ki baat kar di. Toh jo cheez strongly believe karte they woh daala, because we’re picking things from life. But aisa zaroori nahin hai ki hamesha is kism ka cinema banayenge. When we’ll have nothing much left to say, we’ll start doing different kinds of films (laughs)!
But given that you make one film in some three years (five years this time, he reminds), it'll be some time before you run out of things to say, right?
I am taking my time. Main uss daud mein hoon hi nahin ki mujhe har saal film banani hai. Jab lagega ki kuch kehne layak baat hai, jab lagega ki kuch keh sakte hai, toh bana lenge. Main paise ke peeche nahin bhaag raha. Woh bahut obvious hai. Why would I wait five years after 3 Idiots? I would’ve thought ki bana leta hoon ek beech mein. I cannot do it, jab tak mujhe nahin lagega ki yeh story bolne layak hai. Aaj tak third Munna Bhai nahin banayi kyunki aisa nahin laga ki match kar sakenge. If I had to just cash in, I would’ve made one and still made a lot of money.
Vidhu Vinod Chopra was in Delhi when Ferrari Ki Sawaari released, and at the time, he’d made a point that he and you could make anything called Munna Bhai 3, and it would gross a hundred crores in the first weekend, even if people began to abuse it after seeing it - but that is not the way you want to make cinema. Isn't this a very old-fashioned, middle-class sensibility, hardly the cut-throat competitive model?
It might be old-fashioned. Give it whatever name you want to give it, but I love it as it is. I know I will be very unhappy any other way. Main ye apni khushi ke liye kar raha hoon. I’m being very selfish.
Let me tell you how the industry functions. When you’re successful, log aate hain. Aap 5-10 films sign kar sakte ho. Apni pehli film ke baad, aisa koi producer nahin tha jisne mujhko phone nahin kiya. Sab bade log hain, jinko dekh ke main bada hua, so for courtesy’s sake main unko milta tha. I must have met 35-40 producers back then. Sab ne mujhe advice kiya ki tu 4-5 toh sign kar le. Maine kaha unko, 4-5 kahaniyan hain hi nahin mere paas, kaise sign karoon? Toh hasne lage woh. "Sign toh kar le, banana thodi hai. Ek ko bana aur baaki ko delay karte reh. Jab banana hoga toh banana. Jab koi zyaada tang kare toh bana diyo.” That’s the way they function. I said I won’t be able to sleep. Jab mujhe koi phone karega aur kahega ki meri picture kahan hai, I will have to answer. I’d rather make one film and be happy. Main dukhi nahin rehna chahta.Hum logo ko, very honestly, ek film se itna paisa milta hai ki agle kuch saalon tak sustain kar sakte ho aap. Humko koi kami nahin hai. Need you’re taking care of - greed can’t be taken care of. Greed ka toh koi ant hi nahin hai. Mujhko ye nahin hai ki paanch, saat, das ya paintees banaun. Kahan le ke jaaunga? Jo chahiye mil raha hai.
What's Raju Hirani's ideology? What drives your thinking?
Mera vichaar hai that a lot of times you question your purpose of being here. The reality is that none of us has the right answer. We don’t know why we’re here. Kisi ne poochh ke nahin bheja hai hume. Kyun aaye bhagwan ya kisi ne bataya nahin, yaar. Humse toh poochha hi nahin ki aapko kyun bhej rahe hain. Mar ke kahan jaayege yeh bhi nahin pata. Limited time hai. Six billion years se planet ghoom raha hai, hum kitne time ke liye aate hai? 60? 70? 80? If every morning you realize that life is limited, you’ll look at life very differently. We all think we have unlimited time, ki kama loon, ye bhi kar loon, woh bhi kar loon.
It’s the moment you realize that you have very, very limited time on this planet. It's such a speck in the timeline. Agle kuch 50-75 saal mein ek bhi aadmi nahin hoga jisko hum jaante hai. Toh kis cheez ka itna tension le ke ghoom rahe ho? Phir ye sab bother nahin karega. Duniya mein reh rahe hain, we need money, we need things - but you need them to an extent. There are only two real problems of life: one is health; which is a genuine problem, ki aaj baithe hain aur call aaya ki tests aaye hain aur cancer hai. That is a REAL problem. Then your life comes to a stop. I've met people like that.
The other problem, because we live in an economic world, is abject poverty, ki khaane ke bhi paise nahin hain. Uske alaawa koi problem nahin hai, everything is self-created.
Aap astrologer ke paas jao, woh bas hamesha teen problems batayega, because people only ask about these. They ask about money, about health and about their relationships - kyunki sab logon ki life mein yehi problems chalti hain. Sabke saath yahi hota hai. Kidhar le ke jaaoge yeh saara paisa? One morning you’ll wake up and realize, ‘Boss! Itna passion se banaya tha aur ab sab gaya.’ Once your needs are taken care of, you have to change that perspective.
So did you change your perspective, or is this how you think from the beginning?
I guess I’ve always been like this. Kuch toh genetic hota hai. I’ve been fortunate to have a family that wasn’t a big chaser of money. Dad was very progressive in his thinking. Woh nazariya kahin imbibe ho jaata hai. Jab main aaya, dream itni hi thi ek film banaani hai. Only making one film was my dream. 'Yaar ek film bana loon'. Aur uss time badi takleef hoti thi, yaar itne saal beet gaye, film nahin ban rahi... Jab woh achieve ho gaya, uske baad sab bonus hai. Actually bonus hai!
(pauses)
There's something personal I haven't spoken much about earlier.
Ek baar mere saath scare hua aise hi. Unwell bhi nahin thaa, aise hi... regular check-up mein they said something is not right, which turned out later to be an error. But uss din jab doctor ne report diya, it was like, ‘you have a serious illness, limited time.’ Family ko pata lag gaya.
Abhijat thaa mere saath uss din. He called Vinod and told him as well, and he got very worried. Abhijat told me later - which I have no memory of - that I said to him, ‘Ho gaya na, do filmein bana li, gaye to gaye, kya kar saktein hain, mazaa aaya!’ Toh ab control mein toh nahin hai na life, yaar. Kyun apne aap ko dukhi karein! (laughs) Sab nazariye ki baat hai. Mere ko bhi bahut cheezon ka stress hota hai. Kaam ka stress hota hai. The striving is to do good work, uska stress hota hai. Uske alawa I try to avoid...
This sort of line - it's what one hears more often in people who approach from, you know, a spiritual perspective? You're saying pretty much what someone spiritual might say, essentially the same things as the Gita's theory of focusing on your work, not stress about the outcome - but from what I assume is an atheistic perspective.
Geet Sethi (the billiards player) once told me that he was playing in Thailand and in the finals, some player - the name was Wattana, I think - was leading by a huge margin when suddenly he lost one game. And then suddenly, he lost one set after another. It’s like saying aap 99 pe baithe ho aur aapka century nahin hua. So Geet was very surprised and asked him what happened and he said, ‘I was winning and I thought I had it. Momentarily, my attention went to the prize money. The money was good and I’ve wanted to buy a house for my father and I thought I could buy it. I got a little distracted and my opponent won the game. Then I got a bit nervous and my concentration went and progressively I lost the match.’
Focus is a must for what you’re doing. Woh thoda sa hilta hai toh sab kharab ho jaata hai.
For a filmmaker, the work you create is fairly close to your own mindset. And in the case of many directors, what they start out as tends to change over the years as they become richer, more powerful - and reflects in their storytelling as well. How much have you changed?
Based on your success, you could think ki mil gayi luxury, theek hai. That is a very stupid way of losing your sensibilities, I feel. One has to understand that every film is like a first - once you fail, it will be difficult to retain focus. The other thing that happens is, there is so much of - jab main pehli film bana raha tha, toh main akele baith ke banata tha. No phones, no person, no one to disturb me. But once you become a little known, aapke paas log aane shuru hote hai. There are too many distractions. You have to really keep yourself away from them to be able to work.
I was reading an interview of Christopher Nolan recently where he said, ‘I don’t keep a phone. I don’t even have an email ID’. Every day, you’re daunted with 20,000 people seeking your attention. Some people can enjoy that, some people think it’s a distraction. To see a film through is like, saadhna mein jaana padta hai. People may say, karne ko hai hi kya, it's commercial cinema. But there's a huge amount of work in the making of a film - a huge amount of work which people don’t see.
Cinema is your only track?
Haan, I have no other interests! Jo bhi karna hai cinema se hi related karna hai. It gives me so much joy. Abhi bhi koi subject aata hai toh excite ho jaata hoon, lagta hai baith jaun usko le ke. Maza jis cheez mein aa raha hai - why should you leave that and do something else? Beech mein aaye they ek sajjan ki aap bas naam de dijiye, we'll give you a cheque, hum ussi se TV shows, buildings, this and that bana denge. Main ghabra gaya. Maine kaha mat miliye mujhse. Main darr gaya. Maine kaha mujhse nahin hoga. He couldn’t believe it. Magar ye sab aaj tak nahin kiya, kisi show pe nahin gaya.
How much money have you turned away this way?
Gina hi nahin kabhi ki kitna paisa mana kiya (laughs). I’ll only do things I enjoy. Jis cheez mein maza aata hai main wahi karunga. Definitely not just to make money, majboori mein karna pade.
Mujhe aage ka darr lagta hai, kuch le lo na, toh aage woh rassi hai. Rassi tab bandho jab aage woh karne mein maza aaye. There’s no free lunch. Anyone who gives you money will want an ounce of blood. Jab maza aa raha ho blood dene mei toh karo, nahin toh nahin.
Isn't there a slight degree of aspirational arrogance in turning away cheques with multiple zeroes in them? Most people think of security, the future, old age - money coming your way isn't that easy to let go, is it?
One should understand the difference between need and greed. Sab chhod ke jaate hain. Greed ka koi ant hi nahin hai. At what point will you stop and say nahin yaar, insecurity meri khatam ho gayi hai?Look at the richest guy and he’ll say, ‘thodaaur’. Koi end nahin hai. If you can get over that fear, then that’s brilliant.
Ye soch Hindustan mein bahut kam hai.
Fortunately, mere aas paas aise log hain jo aisa sochte hain. Abhijat Joshi, the scriptwriter, kehta hai ki bas yahin kaam karna hai. America mein rehte they, padhate they, mazaa aane laga. He wrote Lage Raho with me. Phir 3 Idiots aur ab yeh. Mazaa aane laga toh sab chhod chhad ke aa gaye hai. Ab Ahmedabad mein rehte hain, Mumbai travel karte hain. Mujhko log kehte hain ki number de do unka, main de detahoon, magar woh jaate nahin hain. Kehte hain mazaa nahin aayega. Khush rehta hai woh. He looks like a happy man. That is his joy. I keep telling him ki budhape mein when we’re not making films, we’ll have nothing to talk about. His work in the film (PK) was done, phir bhi subtitles mein help kar rahe hain. Apni beti ko le aaye ek din. She has written this fantastic book of poetry. Woh raat raat bhar office mein reh jaate hain, he doesn’t need to do that. He’s a successful writer. Mil jaate hain kuch log aise. I feel happy that I have a team with many passionate people.
How feasible is it to be commercially successful without being 'massy' beyond a point? You were talking about Hrishikesh Mukherjee. Who will make movies like that today, and how much will they earn?
Ek cheez bataoon: sab try kar rahe hain commercial cinema mein ghusne ka, but deep within, sab aaj bhi Anand dekh ke rote hain. Hum log screening karte they, we used to do test screenings, aur sab film dekh rahe hote they, aur hum sab ko. Kai baar toh hum log reactions record bhi kar dete they. I have seen the toughest of guys, shakal se badmaash, battered with life, jisko life mein koi cheez bother nahin karti, usko rote hue dekha hai theatre mein. Andar se toh emotion touches everyone. There’s another side to every human being jo reality janta hai. You might suppress that personality. Hum haste they (ki) kisi angle se lagta tha ki yeh banda royega?
For many years now, grey and dark characters have been so fashionable, so edgy. So many leading actors take up those roles, and so many lead characters are people with greater and greater shades of grey in their character. How would someone like you make cinema like that - aren't you too focused on the nicer side of people? You keep digging out the shades of white!
I’ll tell you what... this is something I remind myself often in this industry, main inherently maan ke chalta hoon ki koi kharab nahin hota hai. You can take the biggest guy you know, har aadmi apne aas paas apne issue se joojh raha hai. Hum logon ko nahin pata ki uski kya life hai. Somebody might perceive you as a bad man. But you will never be wrong in your head; you’ll think it’s your circumstances. Boman (Irani) made this point to me when we were making Munna Bhai MBBS. I was arguing that doctors should be compassionate. He came up with a counter theory and said, ‘My point of view is that as a doctor, I should not love my patients - because if I love my patients, I will not be able to help them. One has to be dispassionate to be able to work as a doctor.’ I said, Boman, what you’re saying seems like a strong point, but if I put this in the film, hero weak pad jayega. So Boman said, ‘That is your problem as a director. When I am thinking of my character, I can’t think ki main villain hoon. Har aadmi apni life mein toh hero hai na. Usko nahin lagta ki woh kharab hai. He cannot think that he’s a bad guy. Now you have to figure out a way to counter that.’ And that stayed with me. Nobody in his head thinks that he is a villain. And he actually is not. We create stories in our heads and make villains. You call, and I don’t answer because I’m busy. You’d think, ‘Achha, bada director hai, phone nahin utha raha.’ But the reason could be anything. I could be busy, main phansa hoon shayad kaam mein, koi mar raha hai, kuch bhi. If you call a second time and I don’t answer, by then you’ve formed an opinion, your mind has made a story. When you meet me the third time, the way you’ll deal with me will be different. Mujhe lagta hai hum sab itni dhaarnaye banate hain sab ke baare mein. Har koi apne level pe villain nahin hai, hero hi hai. Honge sirf thode log jo actually kisi ka murder karte hain... But no, actually, even if you meet a murderer, he’ll think he’s right. I went to meet Sanju (Sanjay Dutt) in jail and I was shocked. Woh perform kar raha tha, aur uske baaju mein do murder convicts they. I cried that day. Ye banda uske saath perform kar raha hai uss play mein. I heard their stories. The convict told me that kisi ka loan nahin chuka paya aur uss chakkar mein dhakka mar diya, aur khoon kar diya. So even these guys find a reason in their heads to deal with it and justify it. I’m not saying ki exceptions nahin hue. But in the majority, there is a reason. Apne aap ko hi villain maan ke toh aap ji nahin sakte na. Baaki koi kya soche woh alag baat hai. Hum sab apne mann mein dhaarna bana lete hain ki yeh villain hai, aur phir humaare interactions mein badlaav aata hai aur usse conflict hota hai.
If you were to make a Haider, both the soldier and the militant would be heroes?
Haider maine dekhi nahin hai, magar everybody will have their own point of view. Agar koi jihaadi ki baat kar raha hai, usko toh brainwash kar ke bheja gaya hai, usko toh lagta hai ki woh desh ke liye lad raha hai, yeh uska point of view hai. Woh cold-blooded murder nahin kar raha hai. Woh sochta hai ki woh Almighty ke liye lad raha hai. Haan, usko jo train kar raha hai usme koi gadbad hai. Obviously, kisi level pe toh aadmi corrupt ho hi chuka hai. Suicide bomber ko marna hi hai, usko poochna chahiye ki aap mujhe jo karne ko bhej rahe ho, woh aap kyun nahin karte? Usmein bhi goodness hai, sacrifice ki feeling hai. It’s constantly a point of view ka chakkar. Har kisi ka point of view hai aur saare conflicts yahin se aate hain. Aap koi bhi ladai dekh lo, chahe regional ho, aap deshon ki dekh lo, religion, it’s all a point of view. Har aadmi kehta hai ki mera bhagwan best hai, magar arre bhai bhagwan ne toh kuch kaha hi nahin! Hum log hi bol rahe hain. I think we are a funny species.
Does the younger generation get this philosophy of yours?
When I speak to my son, we have great conversations. He’s in Class XI now. Otherwise, I don’t think we need to preach this simplistic school of thought. Kyun hum kisi ko badalne ke liye nikle? Jo karna hai apne cinema ke through kar lo. You’re not really out there to change the world. Badal bhi nahin sakte.
Not as a preacher. But most of your cinema, to my mind, is selling a 1970s simple, basic human goodness philosophy to a 2010 or a 2015 person. For that, you have to connect.
See, if you look at a film like 3 Idiots - it's about the constant chase to reach excellence. I truly believe in that. I think as a human race, we’re very ritualistic. Ek cheez kisi maqsad se shuru ki, aur phir woh maqsad hi bhool jaate hain. I met the VC of Mumbai University recently and he told me that the classroom way of education is outdated now. He said ab har bachche ke paas iPad, iPhone hai, uske paas world available hai. Pehle world available nahin tha aur classroom ki zaroorat thi, magar ab you have the best teacher on this machine. We have to look at a different way of teaching people. Magar hum wahi karte hain jo saalon se chalta aa raha hai. 20-22 saal aapki life aap padhte ho. One-third apni life jeene ke liye one-third life destroy ho gayi hai. Woh time jab aadmi kuch seekh sakta tha, woh aapne khatam kar diya, sab maar diya. Kya seekh raha hai, kya samajh raha hai? Subah se 8 hours woh yahi kar raha hai. Kuch samajh nahin raha. Why are you forcing things down their throats? Usko bhaasha sikhao, aur jeene ke liye thoda maths sikhao, bas. Baaki woh apne aap seekh jaayega. Bhaasha pe dhyaan do, usko kahaniyan sikhao bahut saari achhi-achhi. We have to educate with stories. Let them go. Bachche ka interest apne aap generate hoga. Hum toh bas yahi kehte rehte hain ki engineer bano, finance mein jao, yeh karo, woh karo. So many people came to me after 3 Idiots saying ki hum log galat hain. I can’t tell you how many engineers I’ve met after the film who’ve told me, ‘We’re in the wrong profession. Now what do we do? We can’t leave, we earn, darr lagta hai. Ab jee rahe hain.’ Some leave it all. I've met doctors who've left their profession. Koi music bana raha hai, koi cinema mein ghus gaya hai... It’s such a faulty system. Baat main galat nahin kar raha, but it’s not popular. Parents get scared. I told my son, ‘Jo karna hai kar. Tu maze kar.’ Can you imagine what Abhijat has done for his daughter? Usne 12th ka exam diya hai abhi and he said abhi college mat jaa. She’s sitting at home. He said ek saal baad dekhna, mann kare toh college jaana. She’s a great writer. She’s written a book of poems and she’s writing stories now. He often asks me, ‘Main bhejoon kya? Woh mujhe blame toh nahin karegi? But yeh uski real education hai. Usko subtitles karne mein mazaa aata hai toh main usko le aata hoon. Usko world ghoomne ko bol raha hoon. She has grown so much kyunki ab she has the time to do the things she never got to do earlier.’ One day I read her work, it is unbelievable! Because she had the freedom to write. Yahin usko bolte nahin physics padho, biology mein dhyaan lagao, samjho sab kuch. Isi chakkar mein aapki zindagi ke pehle productive 25 saal gaye.Par hum toh jee rahe hain na, poori duniya ritualistically jee rahi hai. Isn’t this stupidity? Vice Chancellor bol raha hai galat system hai, badlo isko, magar nahin badalte kyunki darr hai. Jis din darr se aazad ho jaayenge, we will be okay. You need one thing to succeed in life, to make some money to survive, ek hunar jis se aap paise kama sakte ho. Magar aap toh maar dete ho 25 saal bachche ko. Insaan multinational mein jaa ke labourer ban jaata hai. Har baat mein zindagi bhar bas apni naukri bachata hai. Saari zindagi apni naukri bachata rehta hai... I pity a lot of MBAs.
When I was heading to meet you, a colleague called for some work. And I said, listen, if I say the words 'Raju Hirani', what is your first visual impression? The response was, 'Someone who would be cuddling lots of puppies around him, this very benevolent, affection-generating mentoring sort of individual.’ Your reaction?
(Laughs) No, I think I am, deep down, probably an activist (laughs).
How deep down?
My beliefs come out in my cinema, my strong views. But I've also let go. I think, let them do what they like. We, as a species, have gone bizarre in the way we treat our minds and life. Kuchgadbad ho gaya!
As a species, kuch gadbad ho gaya?!
Haan, I'm talking about education primarily. We ritualistically lead our lives kyunki bachpan se ek hi cheez sikhaate gaye, sikhaate gaye. Aur hum andhon jaise believe karte rahe kyunki we live on second-hand knowledge.When an animal dies, it dies. There is no generation of animals which passes on knowledge to the next. No animal leaves behind a book which others can read years later. Hum ko woh knowledge milti hai. Hamare experience second hand hain. Iske benefits bhi hain. Religion and education bhi issi se hai. On the other hand, it also means we blindly believe what has been handed down.
You say parents called you for a long time after 3 Idiots. Who do you expect will call you after PK?
Pata nahin kaun log aayenge, filhaal toh bahut vaqeelon ne phone kiya (laughs). Ek poster nikla aur 5 cases [note - this interview was taken before the release of PK, many more cases have followed since]. Kaha unko kuch bhi transistor ke peeche dikh raha hai? Hamaare akhaadon mein jaao, wahan toh log langot mein kushti karte hain. Unko koi nanga nahin kehta, hamaare sadhuon ko koi nanga nahin kehta, itna art form hai Khajuraho mein, Kamasutra hamaare desh se hai, usko koi nanga nahin kehta, aur transistor pehen ke yeh aadmi covered hai aur chilla rahein hain sab. There is a huge difference between vulgarity and nudity.
You keep coming back to work with the people you have a comfort level with, from what one can see.
Kya hota hai na ki when you work with someone, it takes a very long time to get him on the same page as you. Cinema, unlike any other art form, is so collaborative in nature. Painter akele baith ke canvas pe utaar sakta hai jo uske mann mein hai. But in a film, what you have in your mind - you need 20, 40 other people to see and think like you to be able to project it on the screen. Because ek hi script padh ke a cameraman and a music composer alag alag soch sakte hain. So ek team ban jaati hai, over a period of time, jo like-minded ho jaate hain. When I write with Abhijat, I know he thinks like me. Casting changes with what is right for the film. Historically, this is how it worked. Raj Kapoor, Guru Dutt, they had the same names in the credits across most of their films. More than comfort level, it is sensibility.
So you don't have to raise your voice to execute that common sensibility?
You have to explain your point. Chillane se toh darr jaate hain. When your communication is not clear, you yell. If you sit peacefully and communicate what you want, you will probably not have to yell.