Ayaan Hirsi Ali never stops mentioning at every opportunity where she comes from and the fate of the people, particularly the women, in her birthplace Somalia, as well as in other Muslim countries. For their part, the objects of her criticism, Islamist extremists, remind her, sometimes pretty violently, that this criticism is unacceptable to them, which compels her to go around with a permanent bodyguard. On the occasion of the publication of her book "Nomad" in Hebrew (by Kinneret Zmora-Bitan), Hirsi Ali admits in an interview with "Globes" that while Judaism and Christianity have their extremist elements, in Islam they are more powerful.
"Mainstream Christianity underwent reformation, as did Judaism, and, under the influence of the Enlightenment, they formed some kind of modus vivendi with modernism. In Islam, this reformation never happened," Hirsi Ali explains. "It is still in a place that doesn't work logically, still on the way there. Millions of Muslims leave the lands of Islam for the West, and there they have to cope with what for them is scandalous, contrary to their religion and their basic beliefs.
"There's a crisis in Islam that is similar to, but also different from, the crises that Christianity and Judaism have faced in the past. This is the price of success, since, when Islam was founded by Muhammad, conquests and prosperity combined with an unyielding religion."
In the past, in the Middle Ages, the Islamic world was more advanced that Western Europe, in medicine, science, and culture. How was it left behind?
"I don't know if the emphasis is on 'advanced', but the Muslims conquered countries and so expanded. You can compare it to a commercial firm. At the time of Islam's prosperity there was a great deal of liquidity. Islam developed territorially and scientifically. The 'firm', the Islamic religion, accumulated a lot of cash, and when you are continually expanding and growing, everyone wants to be part of it. And then comes the decline, about 200 years ago, although there are some academics who put it at 500 or 1,000 years ago.
"To use the metaphor of the firm, what has not happened up to now in Islam is the ability to find a 'CEO' who will say, 'Look, we are facing the following reality. Once we were at the top, and now we have to deal with competition from all over the world. To forge an advantage again, we have to innovate.' Such a CEO has not so far been found. This voice is heard there, but the stronger voice, the victorious one, is that of those who say 'Innovation is sin. Don't add to or take away from what the prophet left behind.' This is what stifles any process of innovation in the Muslim civilization."
From refugee to legislator
Hirsi Ali grew up in Somalia in a traditional Muslim family, and when they decided to marry her off to a distant relative in Canada, she decided to travel to the Netherlands instead of to the destination her family had chosen for her, and there she went from refugee to member of Parliament. 'Submission', the film she made with Theo van Gogh, which criticized the attitude to women in Islam, led to Van Gogh's murder and to threats on her own life.
In 2006, Hirsi Ali was at the center of another scandal. In "Nomad", she describes how her lack of support within her party for the Dutch minister of immigration, Rita Verdonk, led to an act of revenge by Verdonk, who revealed that Hirsi Ali submitted false information when she reached the Netherlands as a refugee. At the height of the affair, Hirsi Ali was forced to resign from Parliament, her citizenship was revoked, and the government fell. Her citizenship was eventually restored, but she had already decided to leave for the US.
Your book describes clearly how your family constantly tries to persuade you to return to Islam. Is this an expression of love, or of a lack of pluralism?
"Of both a lack of pluralism and of love. They genuinely fear that I will go hell and so forth. This is a culture that does not accept self-criticism, a mentality that fears to ask questions, frightened that then all will be lost. They think that self-criticism makes them weaker, when it does the opposite. The development of self-criticism is the great challenge for Islam in the 21st century."
Israel a humiliation
I grew up in a religious society, and I gave up religion, but on Passover I could still sit and celebrate the Seder with all my family. Can you see anything like that happening with your family?
"Something of the kind will happen, but not to me, not in my generation. But yes in the coming generations, and the Arab Spring provides indications of that, of a struggle between those who want Sharia and those who don't. There's a confrontation here and a valuable debate, and it will determine which way things will go in the Muslim world."
In Islamic society the attitude to Jews in general and to Israel in particular is very negative and denigrating. Is this mainly because of the occupation of the West Bank?
"That's the reason that they put on the table time after time. But you surely know better than me that prejudices against Jews have existed and still exist everywhere in the world, much more than against others."
The way that it is presented in Arab countries is that it's not a matter of criticism of Jews but of Israel, because of its policy in the territories.
"Yes, but the conflict between Muslim Arabs and Jews started back in the days of Muhammad, when the Jewish tribes in Medina were viewed as traitors, and that's a very well-known narrative in Arab history and in Jewish-Arab relations. If you look at the centuries that have passed since then, what I have found, at least in the literature, is a picture in which Jewish-Arab relations are problematic. They simply weren't as problematic as relations between Jews and Christians in Europe.
"One thing that is clear is that the Arabs have never consented to a Jewish state, and of course a Christian state, in their Middle East. They saw, and see, such a thing as a humiliation as far as they are concerned.
"For the average Arab, it's unimaginable that the Jews, who were dhimmis (non-Muslim subjects of a state ruled by Islamic law Y.M.), should have their own state. Not only that. The Jews went to war and won, and not just one war, and they're stronger. For the Arabs, this is a psychological trauma. There's no other word for it."
And yet a Jewish state was founded here
"The State of Israel was founded through a coalition of the Americans and the British. The latter are still perceived in the region as colonialists and oppressors, as those who left the entity known as 'the State of Israel' behind them. Now the Arab leadership could have said: 'That belongs to history. It's possible to make peace with Israel,' but they don't do that. What this leadership does do is suppress its people, and the only place in the Middle East where people can say something about those who rule them is Israel.
"What the British did was not just poke a finger in the Arabs' eyes by leaving the State of Israel behind them on a small part of their territory; they also bequeathed it democratic principles.
"Any kind of democracy in the Middle East is a huge problem for the Arab leadership, because if you are a Syrian, a Jordanian, or an Egyptian, you say: 'The Jews have rights, why shouldn't I?' That is a big threat to the leadership."
One of the arguments of the Israeli right is that what prevents peace is not the occupation, but mainly the education the sows hatred among the Palestinians.
"That's part of the explanation. Peace is not just with leaders but with people. And if from the age of two or three you teach that Jews are monsters, pigs, monkeys, and evil people who kill us, who took our blood, then the attitude follows accordingly. If this is the narrative inculcated into people, it's very hard to make peace. On the one hand, the leadership there pretends in talks with John Kerry that the main issue is territory, but when they talk to their own people, the issue is good and evil, and they tell their people that the State of Israel, the Jews, are evil, and must be fought. It's not a matter of territory but a cosmic struggle in which there can only be a winner and a loser."
So what's the solution?
"A solution is possible, but only if the Arabs find the right leadership, and at present they don't have that. They don't have a leadership that says it's all right to share the land. If you talk about territory, it can be solved, but if you talk about the other side in demonic terms, a solution is very hard. This is a double standard, and I think your prime minister is right to insist that the Arab leadership should recognize the State of Israel. That is the key. If it won't do that publicly, there won't be peace, but only a process, and you want peace, no?"
This is a translated extract of an interview that appeared in Globes "G" magazine.
Published by Globes [online], Israel business news - www.globes-online.com - on June 24, 2014
© Copyright of Globes Publisher Itonut (1983) Ltd. 2013